Should a lap dancing club be coming to Crouch End?

Decided to have a go at doing blogging by video – as easier than typing with a cast! – so am recording a batch of short clips. Here’s the first – about the application for a lap dancing club in Crouch End:

This film is hosted on YouTube.

For more about how you can help the campaign, see my earlier blog post.

0 thoughts on “Should a lap dancing club be coming to Crouch End?

  1. If not enough people want this, or any, service, they won’t provide custom and it’ll go bust. Seems a reasonable way of answering the question.

  2. Seems a reasonable distance away form the school, don’t really see what all the fuss is about.Look how busy that road is – anything on the other side of that road is completely cut off from the school. Due to all that traffic it might as well be on a different planet.

  3. Would rather a Lap Dancing Club than a YMCA near my kids’ school, but than I’m one of those weird people who thinks religion does more harm than the thing which creates more people…

  4. Julian (&co) – as I was leaving the Radio 4 studio this morning, a lady come up to me and said she was a constituent and did I know anything about the 'Windmill'. Windmill is the intended name of the lap-dancing club in Crouch End.I said I knew lots – and pointed her to the local campaigners site at Lap Off so she can join the campaign and sign the petition etc.Interestingly – she said she comes hope at odd late hours on the bus and has to get out at the stop outside the proposed club. She said she just didn't want to have to be worried or concerned in her local high street – when she does have to come back late at night.And to those who say – well it's a free country – freedom is fine – but as Mill himself always pointed out, you can't ignore harm to others (shouting fire in a theatre etc). Clearly for many in Crouch End – it is an issue.

  5. Of course I think we all accept that one can’t ignore harm. What is the harm in this case?

  6. She said she just didn’t want to have to be worried or concerned in her local high street – when she does have to come back late at… worried about what, exactly?

  7. Where are the subtitles? Or even a transcript as a bare minimum…? Some of us readers are deaf…

  8. I think the big issue here is the lack of evidence that such places (when operating in accordance with their license) do any harm.All seems to be hysterical hearsay at the moment.I think more people would be against such developments if there were evidence they casue significant harm.I’m not expert on the issue but Lynne seem somewhat knowledgable.Could you or perhaps a level headed person from teh campaign actually outline the case against such establishments in terms of hard data.Admittedly this may not be possible if no reputable studies have been carried out. Perhaps what Lynne (and everyone else here for that matter) should be calling for is some reputable and non partisan research into the issue.I.e something carried out and funded by neither extremist feminist/religious groups, nor by the industry itself.

  9. Examples of the problems lap dancing clubs in inappropriate locations bring are here and here.Ian – thanks for the feedback about subtitles. As I said – I’m experimenting to see pros and cons of doing more films and I will think about that.The words are similar to what I’ve written on the site, but I hope the film helps illustrate the location much better than words can do – except perhaps I should have made clear the bus stop right by the venue too!

  10. Lynne that first article is complete and utter nonsense.Their statistics are totally discredited and the so called research was carried out by a feminist group – i.e. just as trustworthy as any research carried out by Peter Stringfellow himself. Even the Guardian newspaper admits the statistics are false!When we make policy it should be based on evidence and as an MP you have a responsibility to get to know the facts about an issue if you are going to campaign on it. This includes critcally examining claims made by not only your opponents but especially by those who you decide to support.Please do not link to articles containing false statistics – spreading myths doesn’t help anyone.I’d urge you to try to get people from the campaign to start being a bit more honest if they want people’s support.

  11. Anon, I’m a feminist and I’m perfectly capable of spotting crap research that’s poorly done.You’re right that that research IS crap and discredited, but that’s not because it was done by feminists. That’s because it was crap research. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day and all that.But yes, Lynne, it does discredit one’s argument if ones figures have been publicly debunked. There is conflicting research which shows exactly the opposite effects to that which you cite. Unfortunately it’s just as flawed.As Anon above says, any research which was properly done would be welcome on this.

  12. Thanks for posting Jennie – it is clear that crap research like that helps no one.As you say it does discredit Lynne’s argument considerably and I really hope she can have some influence over the campaign to make them be a bit more honest and open.Would you be willing to raise the issue please Lynne? – it really is irritating when people muddy the waters with this rubbish.

  13. I’ve uploaded my latest newspaper column, which is on the same subject. I would just add – don’t forget that a lot of this about local communities having a say over what happens in those communities, rather than having decisions made outside their control.

  14. I think the ‘harm’ from having lap dancing clubs is both specific and general – both immediate and long term. It IS complicated to get your head round, which may mean that those looking for a bubblegum answer won’t be able to understand. However, the simple argument goes: if a person is told enough times that they are objects – even if people pay for such objects during working hours – it erodes their day to day power and confidence at a deep level. It affects how they interact with the rest of us. It affects their life choices and encourages them to under-achieve. The group of humans who share their gender, colour, sexuality or whatever are affected indirectly – and in this case, the message will be unavoidable for the young girls of the nearby school as well as all who use the YMCA. If a society is willing to have some of its members sold and bought – even if those members are willing to be sold and bought – that society is sanctioning the devaluation of humanity. There is a wider potential harm which directly affects Julian H. Any such society will not look out for you, Julian, once you have an economic value. You might find yourself on the sticky end of the lollipop one day, and I might not be here to speak out for you then…I am not willing to live in a society which allows women to be flogged. I want all human beings to be treated with respect and with equality. I want my sons and daughters to know that you can’t just go into a shop and buy an encounter. There is a level of difference between what is for sale – and what is not. Haringey is a poor borough – our council is effectively going to cash in on the skin of its women. A lap dancing club (irrespective of the basic exploitation of workers’ rights and the high level of coercion that DOES happen within them – don’t be naive as to think this is Contract at it’s purest!!!) is NOT the direction we want our world to be going. Is it? Puleease!??!

  15. Anonymous, I’m not surprised you chose to post under cover, such is the patronising and illogical nature of your little rant. It’s so much of a mess that I barely know where to start.Ok then, how about here: Julian, once you have an economic value…You what? I have “economic value” and have done since I began working around the age of 12 (various jobs such as paper rounds preceded full time employment). The idea that your vague, unsubstantiated nonsense is too “complicated” for me is somewhat hilarious.Allow me to clarify your argument:1. You personally don’t like the idea of women choosing to dance, or do anything sexual, for men, as part of an economic exchange. Your thoughts on women dancing for other women, or men dancing for women (or men) are unknown.2. In order to impose this personal value judgement on others, you’re looking for a way to collectivise the issue.3. You have therefore decided that these women are hurt by the practice, and need to be blocked from making their choices for their own good, as determined by yourself.4. You have also decided that the harm caused to the women inflicted by their own choices results in harm to thousands, nay, millions of other individuals.5. Therefore, for the benefit of everyone, this justifies your enlightened fetters being placed around our choices – for our own good.You actually admit as much: ” I might not be here to speak out for you then…Yes, thank you for speaking for us, oh anonymous source of protection.At least, I suppose, you’re honest about your near-hubristic thinking and don’t look to hide behind any trifling issues in an attempt to support NIMBYism. Everyone on that side of the argument should perhaps have a look at this inspired blog post from today.A musing of mine on this issue is, meanwhile, is here.